Redeeming Sexuality in the Church w/Debra Hirsch
Nothing has exposed the gap between the church and the broader society quite like the cultural argument over sexuality. Relationships, identities, orientations and even seemingly straightforward concepts such as gender have cut battle lines between the church and the world.
In this episode, we speak to Debra Hirsch, author of the book Redeeming Sex, and discover a holistic, biblical vision of sex and gender that honors God and offers good news to the world.
Deb reflects on some of her own journey with us as she brings fresh language and insightful definitions of sexuality into the context of the church. When you consider the world from the perspective of God’s kingdom mission, it turns out the smoke clears and a redemptive imagination takes root.
In This Episode You’ll Learn:
- Why sex and sexuality is such a “hot-button” issue for the church
- What the church and Christians need to wake up to concerning sex
- How our understanding of sexuality can deepen our relationship with God
- How the search for intimacy in relationships mirrors our search for God
From this episode:
“God doesn’t rank sin. None of us are perfect or without sin in some area of our life. God loves us where we are and he does not label any one type of sin worse or more offensive than any others. Jesus died for ALL sin and longs to redeem every part of our lives and relationships back to God’s loving design.“
Each week the Big 3 will give you immediate action steps to get you started.
Download today’s BIG 3 right now. Read and think over them again later. You might even want to share them with others…
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Links and Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Coaching with Caesar and Tina in discipleship and missional living.
Get Debra Hirsch’s book, Redeeming Sex
Discipleship and Missional Resources
Transcript
We reduce the conversation about sexuality to sex and, and then we want to argue about, okay, is it supposed to only happen within marriage when we don't even really understand our sexuality?
Caesar Kalinowski:And so there again, we reduce it to the act and go, well, that act happened outside of marriage.
Caesar Kalinowski:Why though?
Caesar Kalinowski:What's broken in our identity and our longing to know, know God and know intimacy, true intimacy, where there's no fear, we can actually be naked and unashamed.
Caesar Kalinowski:But we, we have been there again, trained to say it's the act.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that's like, You know, I, I often say, Deb, like God's not sitting up in heaven on a throne and he's just freaking pissed off because your neighbor's having sex with his girlfriend.
Caesar Kalinowski:No, he, he cares about it in this, that you don't understand his heart for you and you don't understand who he's made you and his image to be and the depth of relationship he longs for you to have.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so it breaks his heart that you're trying to fit everything else in instead.
Caesar Kalinowski:That, that's what he's concerned with, not the act, it's the heart behind it.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know,
Debra Hirsch:Christians have this tendency to look at the broader world as all these people, you know, kind of pursuing sex and sexuality and, you know, trying to, you know, have all these needs met and we look at it in a negative and I say from a missional perspective, just, you know, think about what if in humanity's explicit search of sex is an implicit search for God
Heath Hollensbe:Welcome to the Everyday Disciple Podcast, where you'll learn how to live with greater intentionality and
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Caesar Kalinowski:Today, I am super pleased to be able to share this repeat broadcast of a conversation that Heath and I had a few years back now, hard to believe, had with my good pal, author, rockstar, sister to many, Deborah Hirsch.
Caesar Kalinowski:Deb is going to help us reframe our.
Caesar Kalinowski:Understanding of Our Sexuality in Light of the Gospel.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, not too many people talking about that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Listening to this interview today reminded me of just how powerful her ideas and clarity around our sexuality and relationship with God is.
Caesar Kalinowski:Deb Hirsch is a speaker.
Caesar Kalinowski:She's a church leader and obviously a writer and author.
Caesar Kalinowski:She's led churches both in Australia where she's from and Los Angeles and along with her husband Alan Hirsch who you've probably read his books as well and heard him here on the Everyday Disciple Podcast.
Caesar Kalinowski:She is one of the founders of Forge Mission Training Network.
Caesar Kalinowski:Awesome stuff they've done.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now her new book, Redeeming Sex, reflects something of her own journey and attempts to bring new conversations around sexuality.
Caesar Kalinowski:into the context of the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:Deb has been involved in social work, community development, and as a trained counselor has worked in the field of sexuality for, oh, 25 plus, maybe 30 years now.
Caesar Kalinowski:I want you to take a listen.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hey Heath, good to be here and pretty excited to have our sister Deb with us.
Caesar Kalinowski:Deb, I have been in love.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, with you and Al forever, but this book has just been so, oh, I know it's blessed so many people, but it's, it's not just the book.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's really your heart and it's your posture towards sexuality and identity.
Caesar Kalinowski:And just the conversation that's so often, uh, we literally like our parents and teachers and pastors did not teach us well on.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I'm really excited about that.
Heath Hollensbe:Deb, can I start us off?
Heath Hollensbe:Sure.
Heath Hollensbe:Yes.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh, your book, Redeeming Sex, came out a couple of years ago, uh, and was super transformative to many people.
Heath Hollensbe:I was even reading, as I was doing some research for the show, just blogs and people quoting it.
Heath Hollensbe:Massive impact for a lot of people.
Heath Hollensbe:Would you mind sharing a bit of your background on why this topic is something that you're so passionate about?
Heath Hollensbe:Like, why did you write this particular book?
Debra Hirsch:Well, that is a good question.
Debra Hirsch:And this is going to sound like the very simple kind of answer that everybody gives, but I really did feel a calling to write it.
Debra Hirsch:A number of years ago, or many years ago, you know, back in Australia, I would, uh, do a, a teaching series at some of the seminaries there about identity and relationships and.
Debra Hirsch:And a number of my students back then, you know, constantly saying to me, you need to put this into a book and, and always had a sense, yes, I would write a book and, and to be honest, I had a couple of people in different countries even who, uh, didn't really know much about me and, and felt that, you know, had a word for me and said that I was going to write a book.
Debra Hirsch:So it's been, it's been a brewing for a long, long time.
Caesar Kalinowski:So obviously it's been on your heart and you've been speaking about it and that's why people been.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, for years I've been asking you to write on it.
Caesar Kalinowski:I totally see that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, why was it on your heart to even begin to speak about it given all the various topics that you could have spoken to and, you know, that people need to hear about?
Caesar Kalinowski:Why?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, why that particular topic?
Caesar Kalinowski:Were you being called to and kind of gripped by it?
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Debra Hirsch:Well, partly it's my own, uh, part of my own personal journey.
Debra Hirsch:When I, uh, found Jesus, or I should say when Jesus found me, um, I was living and identifying as a gay woman, as were a number of my friends, and we all had a, you know, spiritual encounters and Ended up, um, you know, some months down the track, coming into the community of faiths in terms of finding a church home and just realized how little resources were in the church for not just, um, understanding, um, the gay community per se, but just sexuality in general.
Debra Hirsch:And, um, I was quite, well, we were all quite taken back, actually, um, of the little understanding, um, and, and just the, just even conversations around human sexuality.
Caesar Kalinowski:It seems that, I know the church I grew up in too, any aspect of sexuality.
Caesar Kalinowski:or sex or identity.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was, it was tiptoed around.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was not really taught, discussed, it wasn't understood the depth of who we are in humanity and how much that's a part of who we are.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was almost just not even on the shelf.
Debra Hirsch:Yeah.
Debra Hirsch:Well that's certainly right.
Debra Hirsch:That's what was my experience as well and it was quite concerning to be honest and particularly as um, when I met Al and we got married and went into full time ministry, a lot of our Early, um, ministry experience and, and some of the stuff that we did really was around a lot of people that were, you know, what we might call, um, you know, damaged in areas of their sexuality or felt, felt a deep sense of brokenness about their sexuality.
Debra Hirsch:And, um, you know, we worked a lot with male and female, um, prostitutes.
Debra Hirsch:In our, with our first church plant.
Debra Hirsch:And, and it was a lot of, you know, there weren't a lot of resources to help, uh, people like that.
Debra Hirsch:And so we were very, from a very, um, from the very beginning, really very immersed in the whole field of sexuality.
Debra Hirsch:And, and I went on to, um, you know, be trained as a counselor as well, and did a lot of counseling in that area.
Debra Hirsch:So it was something particularly close to my heart.
Debra Hirsch:And, and in our, our church, again, we were dealing with, with lots of.
Debra Hirsch:Sexuality and lots of sexual problems and sexual brokenness.
Debra Hirsch:It came out that
Caesar Kalinowski:really, you know, it seems easy to say Oh, well, you know, we're looking at a person who has you know, maybe identifying LGBT, or, you know, gender confusion there, or oprossis, it's easy for us to say, oh, see there, there's, there's a problem with their sexuality.
Caesar Kalinowski:But I'm sitting here thinking, like, uh, I can remember back to when I was young, and a, and a boy, and a man, and then becoming a dad and all.
Caesar Kalinowski:Isn't it true that, that we, that probably many, or most all of us have aspects of our sexuality and our identity kind of broken?
Debra Hirsch:Oh, very, very much so.
Debra Hirsch:And, and I think one of the things over the years that I have come to a, come to realize is that.
Debra Hirsch:Particularly, and, and I guess this is more relevant too for today, um, in a sense is, you know, I've come to look at the whole, say the LGBT conversation as a micro conversation.
Debra Hirsch:And I think we get, we get stuck in that conversation because, you know, the church is a bit freaking out and trying to, how do we respond to this and all of that.
Debra Hirsch:And I say to people, um, we, we, we can't just focus on the micro conversation.
Debra Hirsch:We need to put it into the context of the macro conversation because.
Debra Hirsch:If we just focus there, we're missing the whole big picture, and the whole big picture is that we are all sexual, profoundly sexual, each and every one of us, and we are all profoundly broken in our sexuality.
Debra Hirsch:And I find it's too easy for the church to point to the sexual minorities and declare them broken, which frankly has become a very offensive word to them.
Debra Hirsch:And I can completely understand that.
Debra Hirsch:Um, so it's important for us to recognize that we're going to say sexuality is broken in certain individuals.
Debra Hirsch:We're going to say it's broken in all of us because sin and brokenness has impacted every aspect of our humanity.
Debra Hirsch:Yeah.
Debra Hirsch:So it's very important for us to get the macro picture.
Debra Hirsch:on this because it actually includes all of us in the conversation.
Debra Hirsch:It's not just about, you know, we point the finger at those people over there.
Debra Hirsch:It's actually about all of us.
Caesar Kalinowski:We'll never get there until we go to the macro, like you said.
Caesar Kalinowski:No,
Debra Hirsch:that's exactly
Heath Hollensbe:right.
Heath Hollensbe:So Deb, uh, a little bit of my story.
Heath Hollensbe:I come from...
Heath Hollensbe:Maybe the flip side of the coin, being raised in the church, and it is interesting, even as you're talking, uh, and the church not being willing to engage in these conversations, maybe it's fear, or maybe it's, uh, trying to play it safe, because it's, it's never addressed.
Heath Hollensbe:Sex is viewed completely distorted, even when they're trying to approach it from a healthy standpoint.
Heath Hollensbe:So, me and my wife, Twelve years into marriage, both of us have only been with each other in our marriage, but because we were both raised in the church and sex wasn't talked about, we still, twelve years later, feel like, are we allowed, is this okay, is this, you know, it's scarred every aspect, and one of the interviews I watched, you had mentioned the importance of broadening our definition of sexuality much further than we currently do.
Heath Hollensbe:Um, how would you unpack the concept of sexuality, and what do you really mean by this?
Debra Hirsch:Yes.
Debra Hirsch:Well, let me just say, as you were talking about your experience there, I thought of a quote that I have in my book that if I can just read it, I think it's quite a funny quote, but it sums up so much.
Debra Hirsch:And this is by Butch Hancock and he's talking about life in Lubbock, Texas.
Debra Hirsch:And he says, life in Lubbock, Texas taught me two things.
Debra Hirsch:One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
Debra Hirsch:The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth, and you should save it for someone you love.
Caesar Kalinowski:Oh my gosh, okay, Deb, make sure you email that to me, and I think we have, we'll have to add that to the big three, just because people are going to want to have that, so.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, later on when we get to the big three, I'm going to add that, so yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:No, I'm serious, like, send me that, that's amazing.
Debra Hirsch:Okay, I will do that.
Heath Hollensbe:How would you encourage us to, yeah, press those limits and unpack that concept of sexuality?
Debra Hirsch:Well, I think, um, what we have to do is this, I kind of say it like this, we have to rescue human sexuality from being predominantly, uh, remaining in the realm of genital sexuality.
Debra Hirsch:Um, because when our scripting is such that when we think of sexuality, we, we really, we narrow it and we, we, we reduce everything about sexuality down to, What I say, what we do with our bits and bobs, which is just a polyphonic.
Debra Hirsch:Your bits and
Caesar Kalinowski:bobs.
Caesar Kalinowski:Our bits and bobs.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, I think, I would say, I'd say we're reducing it down to do equals be again.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, like, it's like, it's all about the act.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's all about the bits.
Debra Hirsch:Well, there you go.
Debra Hirsch:That's, that's, that's very right, Caesar.
Debra Hirsch:Um, so I think we've got to rescue it from there.
Debra Hirsch:That certainly is part of our sexuality, obviously.
Debra Hirsch:I mean, I say to people.
Debra Hirsch:you know, none of us would be alive today if somebody didn't have sex.
Debra Hirsch:So clearly it's a very strong link towards life itself.
Debra Hirsch:Um, but it's in terms of the way we respond as sexual beings, it's much, much more, you know, if we look at sexuality.
Debra Hirsch:More as our relational side of who we are as humans, uh, that, that includes all of our relationships, not just those that might be motivated, uh, genitally speaking.
Caesar Kalinowski:And Deb, isn't there, there's got to, there's a deep, I know I've heard you talk about this, there's a deep connection between our sexuality and the depth of relationship that God has for us.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that might freak our listeners out right away, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:Unless we broaden our understanding of our sexuality, how do we, how do we actually embrace the depth of relationship that God actually has for all of us?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah,
Debra Hirsch:and I think that's exactly right, Cesar, and I think you're tapping into something here that is, you know, an increasing concern for me, too, is because I think, um, I think our sexuality is, we miss a lot of the connections between our sexuality and our spirituality.
Debra Hirsch:You know, about spirituality in the, you know, in the broadest, biggest sense of the term is our longing to know and be known by, you know, what I call the, the capital O other beyond us.
Debra Hirsch:You know, that we as believers name as, as, you know, in Jesus, we name God who we come to know in and through Jesus.
Debra Hirsch:And I think our longing for God, um, you know, that is mirrored in a sense in our longing for one another.
Debra Hirsch:And, um, and I think that, you know, in the church, we, you know, we, we limit a lot of our depths or intensity of feeling and emotion to the marriage relationship, which kind of, you know, is problematic on multiple levels.
Debra Hirsch:Um, not the least that, you know, our, our singles are not taught to feel deep or to feel passionate about others, um, because that's reserved just for marriage.
Debra Hirsch:And I say, no, God has created us as people to have a depth of.
Debra Hirsch:Um, a depth of longing and a depth of passion.
Debra Hirsch:We feel deeply as people.
Debra Hirsch:And I think Christians don't feel deeply enough, actually.
Debra Hirsch:I think we're not passionate enough for one another.
Debra Hirsch:And I think passion, again, goes beyond just the genital connection.
Caesar Kalinowski:And talk about, again, the micro conversation.
Caesar Kalinowski:We have so often, and myself as...
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, I'll put myself on that list.
Caesar Kalinowski:We reduce the conversation about sexuality to sex and, and then we want to argue about, okay, is it supposed to only happen within marriage when we don't even really understand our sexuality?
Caesar Kalinowski:And so there again, we reduce it to the act and go, well, that act happened outside of marriage.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, why though, you know, like what's, what's broken in our identity and, and, and our longing to know, know God and know intimacy, true intimacy where, where there's no fear, we could actually be naked and unashamed.
Caesar Kalinowski:But we, we have been there again, trained to say it's the act.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that's like, you know, I often say, Deb, like God's not sitting up in heaven on a throne and he's just freaking pissed off because your neighbor's having sex with his girlfriend.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know what I mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, it's like, no, he, his, his, he cares about it in this that you're not, you don't understand his heart for you and you don't understand who he's made you in his image to be in the depth of relationship he longs for you to have.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so it breaks his heart that you're trying to, trying to fit everything else in instead.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's what he's concerned with, not the act, it's the heart behind it.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, you know,
Debra Hirsch:imagine if we thought of, you know, we, we, Christians have this tendency to look at the broader world as all these people, you know, kind of.
Debra Hirsch:Pursuing sex and sexuality and, you know, trying to, you know, have all these needs met and we look at it, you know, in a, in a negative and I say from a missional perspective, just, you know, think about what if in humanity's explicit search of sex is an implicit search for
Caesar Kalinowski:God.
Caesar Kalinowski:Oh man, that's beautiful.
Debra Hirsch:Beautiful.
Debra Hirsch:You know, in the, in the Chesterton, you know, TK Chesterton, uh, Uh, suggested that a man knocking on the door of a brothel was actually looking for God.
Debra Hirsch:So what, you know, what is, what is going on there?
Debra Hirsch:And I do think our, our human longing for one another is a reflection of our greater longing for God.
Debra Hirsch:So imagine Missionary, if we started thinking of it like that, it would just, we would be less likely to judge people and more likely to see the God traces in, in their lives and the God longings in their
Heath Hollensbe:lives.
Heath Hollensbe:You know Deb, um, I think what you're saying, you've said like three or four things that, are really, really powerful, uh, in our search for Yeah, it's dropping bombs today.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, I can't keep up.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh, one of the things that you had mentioned was, uh, especially in the church, uh, you've called the church to develop more of a robust sort of theology of sexuality.
Heath Hollensbe:and maybe even saying that we need to create a new language or inject new meaning into some of the concepts we have.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh, what does this look like and sound like?
Heath Hollensbe:Do you have any examples of this and is this going to freak people
Debra Hirsch:out?
Debra Hirsch:Well, the church already gets freaked out by sexuality, so I don't, um, maybe I freak them out a little bit more with my, the way that I communicate about it, but honestly, I think we, we need a good shake up, so I think the first way is that we've just got to talk normal about this stuff.
Debra Hirsch:You know, still, we, we don't have a language, we're not, we, we don't know how to talk about it, number one, because we've still got this weird cloud of taboo that hangs over all things sexual, and, so we still kind of talk about sexuality like this, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or in very, very rigid...
Caesar Kalinowski:Legalistic ways, there again, sort of reducing sexuality to the act, not, not the person.
Debra Hirsch:Yes, like this naughty thing, you know, that's kind of done behind closed doors and with lights off.
Debra Hirsch:It's just, again, you're exactly right.
Debra Hirsch:We reduce it to that and it's all this kind of negative, uh, stuff.
Debra Hirsch:So I think, um, we've, we've got to be able to talk about it more freely, more openly.
Debra Hirsch:And I think this is where I'm seeing such a great gap between the generations at the moment.
Debra Hirsch:When I'm talking with younger.
Debra Hirsch:people, they say it as it is.
Debra Hirsch:They just say it as it is.
Debra Hirsch:And yet when you get them inside the church context, among one another, they might still say it as it is, but it's not, you know, they don't talk about it like they would with me, like they would with Uh, other people in the church or with, you know, certainly with their parents and, and so I think there's a, there's a gap going on there.
Debra Hirsch:We've, we've got to play a little bit of catch up
Caesar Kalinowski:there.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, there, there's also a cultural, I think there's a cultural freak out.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, I mean, you, I'm sure you've had this happen, Deb, uh, having been, you know, full time pastor, he's a pastor, it's like, um, even people who are not inside the church, those who may not count themselves Christians follow Christ, uh, they'll say things connected to sex or their sexuality and then apologize for it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, it'd be like, Oh man, me and my girlfriend last night were really good.
Caesar Kalinowski:Oh, sorry, pastor.
Caesar Kalinowski:I forgot.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, it's like, I don't use those words.
Caesar Kalinowski:We don't use those.
Caesar Kalinowski:We don't talk about sex.
Caesar Kalinowski:Can I, can I say penis?
Caesar Kalinowski:Is that okay?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, pastor, father, you know, it's like, yeah, well you have one.
Caesar Kalinowski:I have one.
Caesar Kalinowski:I guess we can talk.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, um, how does the, how does the church get, um, You know, a new language when we don't have it yet.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's kind of like saying, well, we, we suck at English, so let's just make up a new, you know, how do we help, you know, how do we help?
Caesar Kalinowski:I think, I love what you're saying.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like we got, we have to start talking about it.
Caesar Kalinowski:We have to get it out and open and, and, and not just reduce it all the time to the act alone.
Caesar Kalinowski:And the, what'd you say?
Caesar Kalinowski:Bobbles and bits, bits and bobs, bobs, bobs, bobs.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Debra Hirsch:Um, well, again, it's, we've got to normalize it.
Debra Hirsch:I think, uh, Caesar, it's got to be normalized.
Debra Hirsch:This is not, Um, this is part of who we are.
Debra Hirsch:We, we have longings, we have desires.
Debra Hirsch:Um, and again, it's not just limited to the genital.
Debra Hirsch:You know, I often say to people, I've been in love with more people than I've wanted to have sex with.
Debra Hirsch:Um, you know, we're, so we've got to, we've got to start naming some of that.
Debra Hirsch:We do get drawn to certain individuals and it doesn't have to have anything to do with sex, but what does it mean to be able to emotionally?
Debra Hirsch:Bond with others.
Debra Hirsch:And again, you know, this taps into all of the stuff in the church around, you know, boundaries between, you know, the two different sexes.
Debra Hirsch:Um, and, and again, I mean, I don't even want to, I can't, I don't have the time to go into, but even just the two different sexes, we've got to really catch up a lot with what's going on in broader culture regarding gender and all of that as
Caesar Kalinowski:well.
Caesar Kalinowski:Oh, let's have you back and let's talk about that, huh?
Debra Hirsch:Let's talk about gender.
Debra Hirsch:That's a big conversation right there.
Debra Hirsch:I often say to people in the context of the church, that's one conversation we don't really get is the gender conversation, because we're still fighting over what roles men and women should have, where broader society is completely redefining what it is to be male and female.
Heath Hollensbe:You know, it's something that.
Heath Hollensbe:Even as you're talking, I'm, I'm convicted, uh, of how, it's, it's sort of what you're saying, like, we tend to be late to the game in any conversation.
Heath Hollensbe:The church tends to, like, as a whole, disregard the conversation until it's the forefront of cultural engagement, and then we come across as angry and frustrated because we haven't thought through it.
Heath Hollensbe:We've seen it with the abortion issue, we've seen it in gay rights issue, like, The church stays really quiet and then all of a sudden we lose our minds because we're 30 years behind because we haven't paid attention to, or welcomed, I feel like the church needs to be leading those conversations, wouldn't you say so?
Debra Hirsch:Oh, absolutely.
Debra Hirsch:We should be leading these conversations on every level.
Debra Hirsch:Um, you know, God was the one that came up with the idea of male and female.
Debra Hirsch:Um, God was the idea who came, you know, the one that came up with, with the orgasms for goodness sake.
Caesar Kalinowski:Thanks for inventing that.
Caesar Kalinowski:God.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Super thankful for that.
Debra Hirsch:But it, it does highlight something I'll never forget years ago when Alan did a, a wedding and um, he was, you know, you know what a wedding's like, it's a very formal, uh, situation there at the front of the church and he's, I'm, you know, I tune in and out to my husband sometimes.
Debra Hirsch:It's just the way it is, isn't it?
Debra Hirsch:What?
Debra Hirsch:What?
Debra Hirsch:But I tuned in.
Debra Hirsch:Tina, I'm gonna ask Tina a question now.
Debra Hirsch:, no?
Debra Hirsch:Yes, but I tuned into him when he was, he was actually saying, wouldn't you like to meet the God who created the orgasm?
Debra Hirsch:And it was one of those moments where I clutched my pearls and thought, oh my gosh, did he just say that we're at a wedding?
Debra Hirsch:And of course he thought it was perfectly normal.
Debra Hirsch:It's a wedding, you know, things are gonna happen that night.
Debra Hirsch:And but, um, fascinating thing for us was, you know, there were some Christians there that were offended that he used the word God and orgasm in the same sentence.
Debra Hirsch:And yet, All the non Christians were lined up afterwards wanting to talk to him about the God who created the orgasm.
Debra Hirsch:And, um, you know, again, we get funny about using those words, but again, this is our God's
Caesar Kalinowski:idea.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know what it reminds me of?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, I'm just sitting here listening, Deb, and you talk about it needs to be out in the open.
Caesar Kalinowski:It needs to be more normalized.
Caesar Kalinowski:Of course, God created it.
Caesar Kalinowski:He creates it all good.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's for our pleasure and His glory.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I remember when we were raising our kids, you know, we didn't do everything right, certainly as parents.
Caesar Kalinowski:But one of the things that we kind of early on talked about, Tina and I, was that we're going to normalize that conversation.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like it's not gonna be like the first time we talk about, you know, uh, our private bits, you know, our, you know, our, our genitals is going to be like when they're about 12 and then it's like, nope, we're going to talk about it and if that way, if anything is a problem, they have questions, anybody's messing with them, uh, their identity is connected to it in some, like shame or weird way.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're just gonna normalize the conversation both from an identity standpoint, uh, uh, physical standpoint, a pleasure standpoint, everybody has genital standpoint, and, and, you know, I think it...
Caesar Kalinowski:It's, it really was exactly what was needed and I think it's, it's kind of like, I mean, we often say that, that discipleship and, and really leading church is kind of a re parenting of the culture, so to speak.
Caesar Kalinowski:So that's kind of how I'm connecting it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Debra Hirsch:No, that's very true.
Debra Hirsch:And, and again today, you know, you've, parents ask me all the time, when should we start talking about it?
Debra Hirsch:And I say to them, when they start asking, I mean, it's, the reality is, is, is the world is educating.
Debra Hirsch:Uh, very, very early.
Debra Hirsch:And we, again, we're behind on that.
Debra Hirsch:So I think you're right Caesar.
Debra Hirsch:We've we've got to be way more open and normalize it So
Caesar Kalinowski:parents don't have the talk with your kids.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just talk with your kids.
Debra Hirsch:Yes, that's right That's exactly
Caesar Kalinowski:right.
Caesar Kalinowski:So so Deb as we kind of start to move towards wrapping things up Let me let me ask you a question and you're such a sweetheart but I want you to be really super honest here because if if we need a bit of a you know kick in the rear that, uh, let's go for it, but what's one thing that the church really needs to hear regarding sexuality right, you know, today, and, you know, what's one thing maybe the church thinks they understand but they really don't?
Caesar Kalinowski:Maybe that's the same thing,
Debra Hirsch:I don't know.
Debra Hirsch:Well, I think gender is definitely that.
Debra Hirsch:Our response to broader culture is, um, woefully inadequate, let me say it that way.
Debra Hirsch:So that's one, but you know what the other, the other one, I think that is really important too.
Debra Hirsch:And this goes back to the earlier question about how we can bring in, you know, new meanings or new concepts or, or new meanings to old worn concepts.
Debra Hirsch:I think the whole issue or the whole conversation around celibacy is really, really important.
Debra Hirsch:Um, because at the moment, those that are walking the path of celibacy or attempting to or, you know, are singles, both straight and gay, um, you know, really feel like they're locked in a lifelong, um, you know, prison sentence in solitary confinement.
Debra Hirsch:There's a whole lot of negativity around that, that it's kind of like a burden that they have to carry.
Debra Hirsch:And, and yet there were different times in church history where I think celibacy was seen as the highest spiritual ideal.
Debra Hirsch:And it was like, Oh, if you have to get married, in a sense.
Debra Hirsch:And I think.
Debra Hirsch:That's
Caesar Kalinowski:right.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Paul said that, didn't
Debra Hirsch:he?
Debra Hirsch:Yeah.
Debra Hirsch:And so I think today we need to have a, we need to create a much more healthy, positive conversation around celibacy.
Debra Hirsch:Um, and also what it entails, what it means, you know, we're talking about people being single.
Debra Hirsch:What does it mean to be single within the Church of God?
Caesar Kalinowski:And I think.
Caesar Kalinowski:And still be a sexual being.
Debra Hirsch:And still be a sexual being.
Debra Hirsch:And again, that's what we need to expand our understanding of sexuality.
Debra Hirsch:Because it is not just about, you know, having sex, it's, it's about having a, uh, relationships that are deep and that are soul filling, you know, for us on multiple levels.
Debra Hirsch:And, um, and I think, you know, when we begin to have more positive conversations around celibacy, we get to bring Jesus into the conversation, who was a celibate man, who, whose call was not to be married.
Debra Hirsch:So therefore genital sexual expression in that sense wasn't, um, in a sense available for Jesus, uh, because of his distinct call.
Debra Hirsch:So he needed to kind of, really engage all, uh, the whole world of his social sexuality in order to sustain his full humanity.
Debra Hirsch:And I think he becomes in a very viable model, uh, for those that are walking the path of celibacy.
Debra Hirsch:Um, but it also is a conversation that impacts all of us because in the, in God's church, I don't believe there should be any such thing as a single person.
Debra Hirsch:We are, we ought to belong to one another.
Debra Hirsch:And so it raises questions around redefining family.
Debra Hirsch:What does it mean to belong to one another?
Debra Hirsch:What, what was Jesus talking about when he redefined family?
Caesar Kalinowski:And clearly it says that Jesus was fully God and fully human.
Caesar Kalinowski:It wasn't like, well, mostly human and, but he was celibate.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, you know, he kind of missed out on a big part of that.
Caesar Kalinowski:So it's like, no, well, that's
Debra Hirsch:right.
Debra Hirsch:And, and so, and I laugh because I mean, in our broader culture at the moment, you know, celibacy.
Debra Hirsch:is seen as suspicious at best.
Debra Hirsch:You know, usually it's like you're either suppressed or you're oppressing something or you've got psychological hangups.
Debra Hirsch:And I think, Ooh, you know, no, I don't think people would be brave enough to say that of Jesus.
Debra Hirsch:You know, here he was a fully human man, fully whole and
Caesar Kalinowski:healthy.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just to make sure it's been said a couple times, because, wow, Deb, we could, we could just keep talking and talking.
Caesar Kalinowski:I want to make sure people do go and, you know, get online, go to store, whatever, get your book, Redeeming Sex, and I love the subtitle, Naked Conversations About Sexuality and Spirituality.
Caesar Kalinowski:Boy, if that doesn't make you want to read it.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, make sure you get that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Heath, where are we going?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah,
Heath Hollensbe:so, Deb, as we close, uh, thanks for being a guest with us.
Heath Hollensbe:This, we hope you come back.
Heath Hollensbe:We've got, it sounds like...
Heath Hollensbe:This is just starting to crack open the chest of where we could have conversations about gender and sex and the LGBT community.
Heath Hollensbe:So I think we have a lot more in the future, but as far as this current conversation that we've had, we'd like to close each podcast with like three things that we can give away to our friends, uh, based off the discussion that we just had.
Heath Hollensbe:So this could be advice or action steps or something that they get to do right now.
Heath Hollensbe:and we call those the
Caesar Kalinowski:big three.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I love that Deb is giving us our big three for this episode.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you can get a free downloadable PDF of this week's big three by going to everydaydisciple.
Caesar Kalinowski:com forward slash big three, B I G three.
Caesar Kalinowski:Deb, what would
Heath Hollensbe:you, uh, what would be your big three for this
Debra Hirsch:week?
Debra Hirsch:Well, I think read the whole conversation that's, you know, particularly, um, again, as, as believe as we.
Debra Hirsch:We have a bit of an inconsistency or an imbalance in the church is what we call sin, I think.
Debra Hirsch:Um, I think for most of us and most communities of faith, when we're talking about sexual sin, We are, they're the ones that seem to be the sins that are on the top of our totem pole, if you like, the more important ones.
Debra Hirsch:So I like to say to people, first and foremost, you know, why are they up on the top of the totem pole?
Debra Hirsch:Why do sexual sinners always feel like the ones that, you know, are never forgiven or they've always got, you know, they wear the kind of, you know, the shame, I guess, on them.
Debra Hirsch:So just be a bit more consistent with what we're calling
Caesar Kalinowski:sin.
Caesar Kalinowski:God doesn't rank sin, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:God doesn't rank sin.
Caesar Kalinowski:God
Debra Hirsch:does not rank sin.
Debra Hirsch:So.
Debra Hirsch:You know, be careful with that.
Debra Hirsch:I think that's really important.
Debra Hirsch:Get perspective there and, um, start paying attention.
Debra Hirsch:If you're going to call one sin out, make sure.
Debra Hirsch:You know, you're all focusing on other things as well.
Debra Hirsch:Look, look to Jesus as your model there, you know, what were the things that were important to
Caesar Kalinowski:him?
Caesar Kalinowski:I've often said, like, we, we will jump on that and, and, you know, marginalize people and just really go after that and then leave this church service and go to the All You Can Eat Buffet and, you know, we know that, like, two thirds of America is overweight or obese and it's like, but no one would ever say anything about it.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, it's like, like what?
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's a, that's a great first of the big three.
Caesar Kalinowski:What's your second, uh, big takeaway for us Deb?
Caesar Kalinowski:Well,
Debra Hirsch:I think most of us do around sexual ethics in a, in a sense.
Debra Hirsch:Well, when we're looking at the New Testament anyway, it's from Paul.
Debra Hirsch:And if you read Paul, he says some pretty strong things.
Debra Hirsch:There's no, uh, denying that.
Debra Hirsch:Um, and they're important things, but I say to people, when you, when you read Paul and you're developing your sexual ethics, read Paul, don't read Paul without taking on the posture of Jesus.
Debra Hirsch:Um, and I think we can say that for, for all things, obviously, but I think Jesus, when you know, we, there's a few encounters there that he has with people that we might call sexually broken.
Debra Hirsch:You know, the woman caught in adultery is the classic one, one of my favorite stories.
Debra Hirsch:Look at his posture there.
Debra Hirsch:There's something so deeply incredible and accepting of Jesus.
Debra Hirsch:And I think what he shows us is that acceptance must precede repentance.
Debra Hirsch:Um, in the woman caught in adultery, he says to her after he levels everybody, which is just beautiful, he then says to her, you know, your, your accusers have gone, or she tells him her accusers have gone, and he says, neither do I condemn you.
Debra Hirsch:There's a words of deep acceptance.
Debra Hirsch:It's the open arms of Jesus, uh, first and foremost, before he says, now go leave your life of sin.
Debra Hirsch:And I think in the church, we've reversed that order.
Debra Hirsch:We, we kind of communicate to people, go leave your life of sin, then we will accept you.
Debra Hirsch:Uh, with Jesus, it's the other way because Romans tells us that it's God's kindness that leads us to repentance.
Debra Hirsch:So model the posture of Jesus.
Debra Hirsch:Don't
Caesar Kalinowski:miss, don't miss, acceptance precedes repentance.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Number three.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's so good, Deb.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well,
Debra Hirsch:just, I think for number three, really just begin to bring grace back into human sexuality.
Debra Hirsch:I think our sexuality of all of who we are, our sexuality has been the least area that we have graced, um, particularly as a church, um, so I just say to people, do you know what, when we mess up sexually or when we're broken in areas of our sexuality, this is, our sexuality is our most vulnerable part of who we are, isn't it?
Debra Hirsch:It's where we feel our pain, it's where our longings are felt, it's our desires for intimacy on genital and non genital ways.
Debra Hirsch:Um, and I think that we all feel a sense, especially when we do, uh, sin and when we are broken, it's very easy to get a whole, to have a whole lot of shame that begins to surround us.
Debra Hirsch:And I think shame is not good for the human soul.
Debra Hirsch:It's not good at all.
Debra Hirsch:And I think.
Debra Hirsch:We must bring grace back into a disgraced area of our lives, and I think, um, in doing that, I think, you know, there will be a, it'll be a different church.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's, there's no shame in the gospel, and there's no should, and there's no supposed to.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, we, in Christ, we get to or we need not, and it's beautiful, Deb.
Caesar Kalinowski:Thanks for that reminder.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, and if you're liking the podcast, be sure to head over to iTunes, and, and, and You could subscribe to it, you could rate the show, write up a review.
Heath Hollensbe:That helps us be able to get these conversations out to people that might not normally hear it.
Heath Hollensbe:Deb's book, Redeeming Sex, is available on Amazon.
Heath Hollensbe:Go get the book.
Heath Hollensbe:Get the book.
Heath Hollensbe:A
Caesar Kalinowski:great read.
Caesar Kalinowski:Again, Deb, thanks so much, sister.
Caesar Kalinowski:Thanks,
Debra Hirsch:guys.
Debra Hirsch:Lovely to talk with you both.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, I told ya, she is so smart, and gentle, and articulate.
Caesar Kalinowski:I really love this conversation.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I really love the hard work and blessing that Deb and Alan both continue to be to the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'm humbled to call them both really good friends of mine.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, that's it for today.
Caesar Kalinowski:I hope that this has given you plenty to think about, and I hope you'll share this episode with others in your life and in church.
Caesar Kalinowski:And please join us again next week.
Caesar Kalinowski:We will continue to look at how the good news of the gospel speaks into and reshapes everything about everything.
Caesar Kalinowski:Alright, I'll talk to you soon.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks for joining us today.
Heath Hollensbe:For more information on this show and to get loads of free discipleship resources, visit everyday disciple.com.
Heath Hollensbe:And remember, you really can live with a spiritual freedom and relational peace that Jesus promised every day.
Heath Hollensbe:Redeeming Sexuality in the Church w/ Debra Hirsch | https://EverydayDisciple.com/455